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please note that i intend to write a review of my own when this entire production is released in full. until then, a few points in matt's review have sparked off in me the desire to indulge in a discussion.

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Which is one thing I cannot understand - what's the deal with the "episode" lenghts, and the total lack of credits anywhere? Things really seem to be totally fragmented at the moment...

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that threw me a lot too. it wouldn't be quite so bad if we simply assumed that each episode is a single "act" from one longer episode (i.e. the bits between ad breaks), as was the download division case with the "starship exeter" fan video for example. this would certainly explain why we've so far had one set of opening credits and nothing else, and why the "act" lengths are quite variable: it's all a single play.

of course, with "starship exeter" consisting of high quality video files, it's understandable why you'd want to break it into acts. here, depending on the overall length of the whole play, i'm sure you could get away with at least half an hour per segment. perhaps david misinterpreted a remark i made regarding credits length vs episode length in my review of "the big f up"?

at any rate, i'd be sorely tempted to call this production a play if not for the fact that later episodes are still apparently unfinished at this stage, in which case "serial" is the only appropriate designation -- particularly since later parts of the production can theoretically be affected by audience feedback from earlier parts.

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Aron Toman's librarian is far too OTT for my liking...

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so i'm not the only person who thought he was camping it up? that's a relief.

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And since when were the crystals in this story from Mark Ezra & Johnny Byrne the Metabelis crystals?

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you mean the "metebelius" crystals? (well, that's how david pronounces it for some unknown reason!) i don't think they were. but then neither was there a ship inexplicably named after a pioneering fictional scientist in the original ezra/byrne script. (running purely on evidence from a completely unrelated documentary, my guess is that the appropriateness of naming a spacecraft after professor quatermass is probably lost on the person responsible for the decision.)

point being, it's more continuity. which seems to be a big thing for a lot of fan audio groups. actually, now that i think about it, it's quite possible that only fineline of all groups have managed to avoid dodgy associations with past series creations, btr included. but yes, if you can crowbar in a bunch of continuity, say some fan producers, then do so indeed. i mean, i seriously doubt the pogo stick of rassilon was in the ezra/byrne script either.

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Oh, and one last thing - some wonderful jokes in this "episode". Loved all the stuff dealing with the planet Kerne!

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if not for the delivery, i thought. a potentially brilliant gag, trampled over by yet another case of "the doctor's enthusiasm will be engaged at a later date" syndrome. luckily it's one of the rare cases in this episode, instead of standard practice.

doctor who lives also noted:

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I don’t know if it was Dave’s intention to produce spoof Doctor Who audio dramas (in the early days)

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if it wasn't, then he sure has a funny way of going about making totally faithful, "the fourth wall is nicely closed" drama!

you also note that you still prefer this to "weary death", which i feel is a completely pointless comparison (unless you're seeking to belittle your host fan group as an aside), since "last of the time lords" is a dam audio production entirely faithful to david nagel's style and approach, and completely controlled by his hand as producer, whereas "weary death" is very much a btr production driven only partly by a first draft script from david which wouldn't even have suited his dam audios/films style of output in its original form.

david said:

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Glad to see Witold got round to posting something, lol!

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i've explained that i'm saving my review for when i hear the whole thing. these are just off the cuff responses to what other people have said. (curious to know what the big deal is, though!)

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You're welcome to post your comments about the "Chimera" trailer in one of the threads further down this board, which will save me from copying and pasting your comments from the e-mail you sent!

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i would, except i can't remember what i said!

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Um, yes, I do apologise on that front since I have fragmented this whole thing in 'parts' doesn't necessarily mean that they are single episodes, the whole thing is meant to be feature-length and when all these 'parts' are up there they can be playlisted together to make one big audio adventure!

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so i was right!

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Really? I thought Aron performed exactly what I wanted him too.

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doesn't mean everyone's going to like it just because he followed directions, or that he'll avoid camping it up. who's to say that wasn't how you wanted it?

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Um, if you remember Matt you voiced a character that actually had the Pogo Stick of Rassilon won by Neglos who took the PSoR to Neglos and Zilla (that's all in part one)

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to refer back to matt's query, that still doesn't explain why the doctor's after it.

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I said to Michael during our recording session that people over the internet have a habit of pronouncing things different to what we do, so I thought I'd play on that!

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i'm glad you've now explained that joke, because i for one didn't get it.

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Um, the synopsis has been taken from the original and given the DAM-twist, the script generation is completely ours.

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in lee's defence, that still doesn't help him identify which elements are yours and which are from the ezra/byrne version.

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Yes... um... I didn't like the Floorten script, didn't sound 'tinny' enough and the thing clipped the lines as well!

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serious? at least there's didn't leave the voice sounding like a slightly processed actor. (i could almost pick the voice, but not quite.) then again, that might also be the performance.

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Yes. The Pogo Stick of Rassilon wasn't in the original synopsis we worked from simply because Neglos won a 'time rotor' at the auction and thus we had to change it, simply because the 'time rotor' is too TARDIS-y for my liking so it was converted to the Pogo Stick!

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it's insightful to discover that you've taken a storyline which was essentially a mishmash of half-remembered continuity elements and sf devices, expressed dissatisfaction with it, and reshaped it by replacing these with your own half-remembered continuity elements and sf devices! which, given the jokey nature of your productions, is certainly effective.

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Oh that isn't the reason. Simply because, as already mentioned, is the lack of time and I am trying to get out as much as I can with that amount of time.

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presumably this time issue is fixating around the anniversary of a couple of weeks ago. although that's a clear enough reason, i have to agree that it still seems odd to be releasing a bit of this thing at a time simply because you wanted to contribute to the anniversary. i mean, each to their own, but i'd have waited until the whole thing was done and then celebrated my own efforts by trumpeting the release.

i guess i have issue, to an extent, with the notion of releasing *something* in honour of the anniversary, where the only connection is the timing of the release. i mean, it's not a celebratory story, it's (presumably) not one which provides insight into the producer's deeper appreciation of the series as an institution nor as a cultural signifier, but is simply a spin-off. certainly, it can be argued that the use of the old movie script's synopsis as a springboard is in some way special, but given that said script was an unsuccessful mishmash, that it went through numerous drafts and numerous writers, that it wasn't intending to celebrate much of anything itself, and that it never got made, it seems a dubious choice of source material for commemorating -- or in any way connecting with -- the significance of the anniversary. which is why i'd have been happy to release it whenever it was finished, had it been me.

matt, the bastard who passed 600 posts earlier today, said:

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There's honestly no reason for such a sloppy decision such as this one to be made, because all it is doing is undermining your work and effort, all in the name of meeting some kind of "enforced" release schedule.

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i suspect the anniversary timing, as noted above, was probably of some significance in determining a start date for the release. see above for my reasoned argument for the advantages of postponing, which i suspect you'll find complements your own.

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I know I for one am considering the idea of not downloading any more of the story until the whole thing is on-line, simply because the current release schedule is doing more harm than good.

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given the volatile nature of the internet and of server quotas, i'd recommend downloading it now but not listening to it yet.

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Oh, and once again I'll state it quite clearly that it's *Time Lords* - not Timelords. It's two words, David. They are Lords of Time, afterall...

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shush, matt -- you don't want to disturb the lad with correct language usage.

mind you, this is a valid point. even daltenreys got this much right when they had that poster of theirs commissioned.

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If they are after both, then given the gap between each episode, it might be worthwhile you gently reminding listeners with each new episode what's going on, otherwise everyone might be as confused as I am!

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but it's all one great long play. (i'm sorry, but when have radio plays ever been called "feature length"? i doubt they translate well to cinema re-release!) so you'll just have to listen to it all in one go.

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Fanwank is never a good idea to put into a script - it's the first sign you're on a clear road to crash & burn with the script.

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only if it drives the script. otherwise it's just irritating, not destructive.

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If you're not happy with the names the original synopsis gave, then by all means change them - but why make them from a planet already namechecked a couple of times in the series?

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which, now that i come to think of it, only had blue crystals on it. those being from metebelis 3, the famed *blue* planet of the acteon group. as mentioned in "carnival of monsters", "the green death" and "planet of the spiders", the latter two of which it was seen in as well. and it all looked very, very blue. with loads of blue crystals. and not a lot else in the way of crystals.

another problem with fanwank: you need to research it, because if fans are your audience, chances are they'll spot when you've stuffed up.

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It just makes the universe the Doctor inhabits seem even smaller, and also suggests a lack of new ideas on your part.

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yeah, but it's only a work of fiction after all. you don't believe me? that time lord (sorry, should that be "timelord"?) in "the big f up" said so.

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Well, it was a great idea mate - well improvised and executed. Just get more excited about what you're doing, and you'll be onto a winner!

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perhaps just focussing on acting might help, instead of also worrying about producing and (especially) directing every scene. i'm not saying always, but maybe sometimes. plus, there then exists the added advantage of getting a second opinion on your performance from whomever is directing you.

now, this may not make any difference at all for all i know, but it might also be worth a try.

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My honest suggestion is to take stock of what is left to complete on the serial, and try your level best to get the individual fortnightly updates into a longer fashion each time - give us 10-15 minutes, not 5-6 minutes.

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i don't think it helps that, as david noted to me in private correspondence a little while back, he's still waiting on lines from some people as well, which will further limit how much can be achieved each fortnight.

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it will quite possibly result in less confusion from your listeners, and less opportunity for people to simply tune out due to said confusion.

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or offer brief "previously on the last of the time lords" recaps at the start of each part. these don't have to be fancy -- just three or four sentences spoken by you, direct to mic, describing crucial events thus far. (hell, if they did it on "trial of a time lord", perhaps it's not a bad idea.) if you're worried about these interfering with a continuous flow when people finally get the whole thing together, then don't even bother anyway because they're got getting a continuous flow now. but even ignoring that, i'm sure most listeners would use a sound editing program to cut the files together anyway, so they could always chop your recaps out as well when assembling this "feature length" audio play of yours.

mac said:

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in defence of Aaron, poor thing lol, heres how I was advised to play my lines...
dave said:
"Um, I like to let voice artists take their characters into their own terriototy but I always say, especially for this audio, play everyone over -the top!"

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another correct guess! wow! i'm on a roll this week.

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(though he did cut an ad lib I made...when on Gallifrey and Gonjii states what they are looking for the recorded line was.."We're looking for, <slight embarresed noise then under breath> I don't believe I'm saying this - er the Pogo Stick Of Rassilon"

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you're kidding? that's a top gag, and one that's entirely in keeping with the overall style of dam audios.

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must say, Im enjoying the discusion....nice to see fan stuff so well looked at at talked about

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glad you feel that way, mac. certainly makes a change from being personally abused for doing so.


matt said:

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You've got a thing about being the top poster on this forum, don't you?

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it was a joke, mate. and yes. nah, tis cool -- just trying to preserve my image as the guy who talks too much! at the end of the day, i don't much care if you're skyrocketing past me.

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What I would have then done is probably gone for a monthly release schedule, so that at least this way a bit more of the story could be released each month, rather than this "I'll release a few scraps of the story each fortnight".

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i see -- so it's the frequency of releases you have an issue with. that's a different kettle of fish, then.

mind you, how lost would everyone be if they had to wait a month between fragmented parts?

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Hey - no need to worry mate. We're playing on home turf here, and so we've got the advantage of playing towards the wind...

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yeah, well, you may have noticed, but i did play towards the wind. do you think i could've been that cheeky (albeit politely so) on a certain other forum without forfeiting my balls?

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True - and this does tie in with one of your later comments, about fans being the audience for this, and so fans are most likely going to pick up on continuity elements that go bad - and spelling "Time Lords" incorrectly is about as obviously stuffed up as they come.

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and indicative -- though i've absolutely no idea why -- of post-tvm fandom. it seems loads of new fans who came into the fold after the telemovie make this error. even scott used to when i first met him, and he's on the other side of the planet from david! this is a potentially fascinating psycho-social phenomenon here...

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Hehehe - that's the funny thing. You can't really call any form of radio play "feature length", simply because there's no pre-designated set time duration for the genre of a radio play, is there?

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you're right, there isn't. "feature length" makes great advertising copy for long tv episodes, and is of very specific relevance when it comes to films (the afi, for example, offers different funding scales for short films, short features and full features), but a radio play is a radio play. unless it's a radio serial.

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True. If I'd been in charge of making an audio adaptation of the film script in question, I'd have de-fanwanked the entire thing, so as to make the thing more appealing to a possible new and general audience.

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i'd have gone one step further by adding new plot elements which enhance the frankly straightforward quest nature of the plot, otherwise it just won't withstand a substantial running time.

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Even when fankwank drives the script, surely there's got to be a better way to allow said script to flow, without resorting to namechecking the writer's knowledge of Doctor Who continuity so continually?

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at least there's a continuity of continuity!

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And they were such pretty blue crystals too!

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yeah, they looked great for bits of plastic.

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Perhaps it might be worthwhile if David undertakes some detailed research into the genre he is attempting to pastiche?

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i also noted at one stage that it'd be worthwhile if he undertook some detailed research into the series he was alleging to document in detail, but i'll say no more as that's more relevant to a review of something else entirely.

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If it's science fiction, then he needs to seriously sit down and watch more than just the Doctor Who DVDs that are currently available on the market.

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good point. it's essential to note that the general quest plotting of this particular story (and i'm referring to the source material as well) is more the domain of fantasy. a decent sf writer looking to explore the bounds of the genre should at least know what they are.

besides, it can never hurt to allow some quality literary sf (or any broad range of literature, for that matter) to infuse your work. worked a treat for various original series writers! and it greatly expands your storytelling possibilities, because whole new approaches to narrative fiction are suddenly at your disposal.

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David, watch The Tomorrow People. Moonbase 3. Day of the Triffids. Star Trek (in all its various forms). Space 1999. Star Wars (all the movies - if you can stomach it). Star Cops. Blakes 7. To name just a few. Basically anything sci-fi that you can get your hands on.

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i should print my unpublished final mistfall editorial at this rate: it's got a superb section on recommended tv influences. actually, i will, at the risk of making this a very long post. though i'll just quote the relevant section. note that some of this snippet is likely to sound insanely arrogant out of context, largely because i've not reprinted the purpose and scope of the discussion.

SF isn’t the be all and end all of TV. In fact, it’s where TV frequently descends into a puerile, childish, plotless, flashy mess, most unlike the heights to which literary and, occasionally, cinematic SF ascends. (Did anyone see A.I.? Good stuff, eh? Especially that last half hour. No? Yeah, well, that’s the answer I was expecting from most.) Basically, it’s a child of Star Wars, and very few people in the industry trust it as a genre. There’s a reason why the BBC, among other television providers, has so frequently claimed to produce something of quality. There’s a reason why even our beloved Doctor Who got consigned to the junk heap in the 1970s when so many period dramas survived those criminal purges. Television is entertainment, above all else, and its purpose is, by and large, to make money for people, but there’s one thing it has rarely been (unlike its close counterpart, cinema).
That thing is art. SF can be stylish, SF can be deep, SF can be moving. But when has it ever been truly artistic on television? I can think of barely two or three examples; The Prisoner, without a doubt, and possibly Cold Lazarus – although the latter is there more for its author and his personal concerns at the time than for its actual merits. The related Karaoke scores over it in nearly every respect. Actually, that’s about it. No, I haven’t seen every SF series ever produced, and I’m glad I haven’t. But I’ve seen a lot, and I’ve read about a lot more, and I can think of no other examples off the top of my head.
Does TV need to be artistic? Of course not – that’s why it rarely is. Does it need to be artistic to be any good? Again, no. Doctor Who is, at its best, superb, but it’s not art. Is it deep? Is it stylish? Is it moving? It is that and more. But it’s only a small pocket in what television can achieve and has achieved. (And it sure ain’t Jonathan Miller’s 1968 version of Alice In Wonderland.) Besides, it’s an adventure serial. When it finally got bogged down in characterisation in its declining years, did we rejoice? No: fandom was most vocal in its desire to see the show return its focus to the story and the title character. I’m not saying that Doctor Who should try to crowbar everything into its format. Yes, the claims are right: it can be anything and everything. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it should be.
So what am I actually trying to say here? For a start, I genuinely apologise for having rambled so much. I guess what I’m trying to say is that Doctor Who can’t be everything and succeed. No programme can be everything and succeed. Which is why I urge fans to look elsewhere to see what they may be missing.
What’s more, I urge them – you – all to look towards the more highly regarded British material out there. The BBC was first in after the gunshot when television arrived, so they’ve had a lot more time to come to grips with what makes good programming. But they’re certainly not alone. So check out a few BBC classic serials: preferably the ones that don’t get hyped so much that they go to video before airing, although some of these are good.
I’d like to recommend The Hanging Gale, a better example of what Paul McGann is keen on appearing in than the telemovie; Karaoke, a Dennis Potter serial so good that it screams for more instalments (and for a far better sequel than Potter himself gave it); the trilogy beginning with House of Cards, a superb series of political serials that reveal the talents of a few of the great actors who don’t do the telefantasy rounds; Middlemarch, an adaptation by the same man, Andrew Davies, who brought House of Cards to the small screen, let down only by its largely uninspiring direction, but rarely boring over seven hours; the Quatermass serials if you can get them, which reveal just how Doctor Who was done before it was even devised; Edge of Darkness, one of the few times in the 1980s that the BBC bothered to pour money into a decent genre show; In the Red, the ballsiest display the BBC has ever made of telling everyone exactly what’s wrong with itself; and, if you really need that fix of Who stars, A Very Peculiar Practice, also written by Andrew Davies, and starring Peter Davison, David Troughton and Graham Crowden.
The aforementioned Dennis Potter tended to make the rounds when he was writing, so expect some of his finer work to appear courtesy of the likes of Channel 4. Lipstick on Your Collar and The Singing Detective are two that must never be passed. Indeed, the latter has frequently been considered as one of those rare programmes which one might safely call “art”.
Less classy but no less entertaining and diverse programmes include Goodnight Sweetheart and The Goodies, to be sure, but also Monty Python’s Flying Circus, The Young Ones (a surprisingly effective commentary on Britain under Thatcher), Ultraviolet (well-exploited SF on a cop show budget), The Avengers. UFO saw Gerry Anderson get things right for virtually the only time in his life, though mostly through the aid of script editor Tony Barwick. Anderson’s other genuine success was Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons (yes, you heard me right!), but again thanks largely to script editor Barwick and his insistence on penning seventeen and a half of the series’ 32 episodes. Colditz is an impressive war drama, while Callan remains the best damn spy series ever made, bar none. (If you don’t believe me, ask Andrew Pixley.)
Closer to the present day (and further distant from the BBC) is Millennium, easily an underrated gem in parts while admittedly little better than its slow-witted older cousin, The X Files, in others. Indeed, the second season had a social depth rarely seen in televised American SF in its examination of collective religious beliefs and superstitions, and how these interact – poorly at best, it seems – with the growing influx of science-as-explanation. Further, large portions of that season’s two-part finale very nearly border on the artistic, experimenting with previously untried methods to convey elements of the narrative. (Here comes Patti Smith one more time.) How some of these scenes reached the American airwaves still perplexes me. Dark Skies is The X Files done properly, while one should look to early (i.e. pre-season four) Buffy the Vampire Slayer and, very increasingly, Angel, for well-written and well-directed examples of more fantasy-based stories. The ultimate in recent American television, however, has to be the largely uncompromising (and sadly missed) Homicide: Life on the Street, without doubt the finest police drama ever to have come out of that nation. From the same producers, though a little harder to track down, is the ground-breaking prison drama Oz, which is lucky enough to be a resident of cable channel HBO, and is therefore allowed to get away with murder, bother artistically and in censorial terms, in confronting the issues it does.
Futurama features the intense, multi-layered social commentary of The Simpsons, with the added bonus of superb animation, brilliant in-references to its clearly acknowledged roots, and a post-modern look at the contemporary SF dreaming spawned by the Space Age. The Twilight Zone – and I’m talking the original Rod Serling series here – is easily the most famed of all the series which use SF as social metaphor, and although it is largely fantasy, it’s no less compelling and well-structured. Serling’s dialogue is some of the finest ever committed to the small screen.

everyone scared yet?

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like Star Trek taking blue fuzzy things in space far too seriously

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not when you watch it in b&w!

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Ah, but even good works of fiction make some small amount of sense.

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that's right -- otherwise there's little point in including a narrative at all, except to subvert its very existence. and the dam audios do appear to be striving to be narrative fiction on some level.

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Very true. Perhaps these downloads should be "screened" to a test audience of people not involved in the production, so that an independent second opinion can be fed back to allow for improvements to be made before the general public get their hands on it? Just a thought...

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and not a bad one when everything is done by a one man band. as competent as that one man may well be, there's always the likelihood that other people will think of other good ideas.

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Just make sure if you do use this technique, don't show it anywhere people on the floorten.com forum might see it - otherwise David you'll find yourself on the receiving end of a massive flame war!

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no he won't -- he's quite clearly not a part of the btr conspiracy.

as an interesting endnote to the discussion of variant spellings of the name of the doctor's race of people, i've noticed while rereading jean-marc lofficier's "the nth doctor" (which i frankly only picked up again because of the tremendous interest in the old daltenreys project that this adaptation has spawned) that he does indeed use "time lord" throughout, including in the chapter on "last of the time lords".

i just thought it was worth noting, as this text was presumably the source used for the storyline which was ultimately adapted.

it's also interesting to note that, given the convoluted rewrite history of the project (story by litten and dugdale, screenplay by ezra, rewritten until unrecognisable about three times by byrne), dam audios have gone with what must rank as the single most straightforward approach of simply crediting the source material to ezra and byrne. it's always good to avoid a mess of arbitration!